De facto Prime Minister Ariel Henri “intrinsically linked to gang leadership” in Haiti according former US ambassador to South Africa Patrick Gaspard was highly critical of de facto Prime Minister Ariel Henry, who is taking advantage of the country’s chaotic situation to stay in power.
In an interview with MSNBC political commentator, Sirius XM and Slate magazine host Jason Johnson on August 11, Patrick Gaspard sharply criticized the head of the interim government, accusing him of being complicit with armed bandits. “The current Prime Minister, who acts de facto as president, is closely linked to the leadership of the gangs in the country,” said an exasperated Patrick Gaspard of the perpetuation of the crisis in Haiti.
The Haitian-American takes as proof the fact that several members of Ariel Henry’s entourage have been sanctioned by several countries, including the United States.
“… And many members of his entourage have been sanctioned by the United States, Canada, France, Japan and many others, because of the way they undermined democracy, were involved in aid corruption, destabilized the entire judicial system in Haiti, and were also involved in the assassination of the previous president.”
In no uncertain terms, the former executive director of the Democratic Party’s national committee accuses the Prime Minister of involvement in the assassination of former president Jovenel Moïse. “The Prime Minister assumes his duties following an assassination in which he himself is implicated”, accuses the President of the American Center for Progress.
The American diplomat also expressed harsh criticism of Joe Biden’s administration for its support of Ariel Henry.
Mr. Gaspard also deplored the fact that the United States had continued to support Jovenel Moïse when his term of office had already expired.
We present here the full transcript of the interview conducted for Slate magazine’s “Un Mot Avec Jason Johnson” program on August 11, 2023.
Please note that the transcription and translation were carried out using ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence software program. As a result, there may be slight differences from the original text.
For a more faithful version of former ambassador Patrick Gaspard’s words, we invite you to listen to journalist and professor Jason Johnson’s interview with former ambassador Patrick Gaspard by following the link at the end of the transcript.
Speaker A: Jason Johnson
Speaker B: Patrick Gaspard
Speaker A: It’s a word.
Speaker A: A Slate podcast.
Speaker A: I’m your host, Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Haiti’s entire history as a nation has been marked by crises and many American and international efforts to help the country.
Speaker: But even the most jaded observers say that the current troubles are unprecedented.
Speaker A: What, if anything, can the United States do?
Speaker B: This administration, which places democracy and human rights at the heart of its foreign policy, has an obligation to bring about the country’s democratic transition now.
Speaker A: Is there a way out of the crisis in Haiti?
Speaker A: A word with me, Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Stay with us.
Speaker A: Welcome to A Word, a podcast about race, politics and everything else.
Speaker A: I’m your host, Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Since the assassination of its leader in 2021, Haiti has been plunged into a cycle of violence and despair.
Speaker: The capital Port-au-Prince is terrorized by armed gangs that make daily life almost impossible.
Speaker A: Citizens have seen their neighborhoods and even their homes invaded by bandits.
Speaker : Kidnappings are commonplace and the homicide rate is so high that the United Nations estimates that more civilians died in Haiti than in Ukraine in the first four months of the year.
Speaker A: The disorder has left the country’s economy in ruins.
Speaker: Inflation is rampant, making the necessities of life, including food, out of reach for many Haitians.
Speaker: The leaders of what’s left of the Haitian government have called the United States.
Speaker A: And the United Nations to intervene for nearly a year.
Speaker A: But Haiti’s past is full of interventions that have left its people poorer, sicker and more in danger of violence and exploitation than before those interventions.
Speaker A: What, if anything, should the United States do?
Speaker A: What should the international community do to help Haiti?
Speaker A: And what lessons can we learn from failed interventions in the past?
Intervenant A: Patrick Gaspard joins us for more perspectives.
Speaker: Former ambassador to South Africa, he is currently president and CEO of the Center for American Progress.
Speaker A: Ambassador Gaspard.
Speaker A: Welcome to a word.
Speaker B: Jason, thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker B: I’d like to add to your presentation that I’m also a proud American of Haitian descent who is deeply concerned about the circumstances on the ground and the Biden administration’s ongoing commitment, as articulated, to placing democracy and human rights at the center of our foreign policy, which, unfortunately, doesn’t always seem to be the case in Haiti.
Speaker A: Haiti’s recent history seems to move from one emergency situation to another.
Speaker A: What makes the current situation different, and how do you see it as a kind of exceptional crisis, even by Haitian standards?
Speaker A: What’s really different about what we’re seeing right now?
Speaker B: You’re a connoisseur of history.
Speaker B: So you know, of course, that Haiti, from its self-liberation in 1984 to the present day, has gone through one crisis after another, most of them inflicted on Haiti by outside forces from the international community.
Speaker B: And unfortunately, much of this crisis also stems from within the nation and from political tensions that are directly linked to the gang violence we see in the streets today.
Speaker B: And that last aspect, Jason, is the distinct thing that qualifies this situation as unique in the eyes of Haitians and the international community.
Speaker B: Your listeners need to understand that since around 1993, when President Jean Bertrand Aristide returned to power following a military coup, we began to see the integration of gangs into the operational political infrastructure in Haiti, which persisted at a rather low level for a long period of time.
Speaker B: Then, with the post-earthquake presidency of Michel Martelly, we really saw gangs being used as additional political forces in the nation, which was radically exacerbated under President Jovenel Moise, who was tragically assassinated in 2021.
Speaker B: The current prime minister, who acts de facto as president, is intrinsically linked to the leadership of the gangs in the country.
Speaker B: And many members of his entourage have been sanctioned by the United States.
Speaker B: Canada, France, Japan and many others, because of the way they thwarted democracy, were involved in aid corruption, destabilized the entire judicial system in Haiti, and were also involved in the assassination of the previous president.
Speaker B: All this led to what can really be described as the devolution of a mafia state in Haiti.
Speaker A: What exactly do you mean when you say that the gangs were somehow integrated into the government?
Speaker A: What’s the distinction between gangs and, say, a paramilitary force attached to a certain party and corrupt cops?
Speaker A: What is this sort of political arm of the gangs that I guess is running amok in Haiti right now?
Speaker B: There are so many elements to deconstruct, Jason, and unfortunately, they all run through the same stream: the political players, the gangs themselves and the police forces in Haiti.
Speaker B: And there’s a kind of unwavering consensus of state-sanctioned violence that runs through all these institutions.
Panelist B: The Haitian police force officially numbers between 10,000 officers.
Speaker B: In reality, there are probably only between five and 6,000 active police officers in Haiti today, for a population of 11 million.
Contributor B: Of these 6,000, a very large percentage – I won’t say it’s more than half, but a very large percentage has been corrupted directly by senators, business leaders, those who were around the former president, Jovenel Moise
Speaker B: They were involved in drug trafficking and extrajudicial executions in the country.
Speaker B: All this has been well documented by us.
Speaker B: S.
Speaker B: U.S. intelligence revealed this at a hearing a few months ago led by the head of the Congressional Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Gregory Meese.
Speaker: When the Democrats controlled Congress, experts from the intelligence community, courageous human rights activists in Haiti and civil society activists described in great detail the links between notorious gang leaders.
Speaker B: Americans who pay attention to CNN and other channels have heard of a gang leader named Barbecue, who is directly linked to hundreds of murders and extensive drug trafficking in the country.
Speaker B: We know he’s linked to Haiti’s two previous presidents and to many former senators who are now under sanctions in the United States.
Speaker B: And the rest of the international community.
Speaker B: So you have a police force that has been corrupted, but other police officers who continue to fight bravely against the gangs themselves.
Spokesman B: And gangs shouldn’t be seen as formal paramilitary structures.
Speaker B: They are in fact teenagers, young men for the most part, who have no other economic opportunities, but who have powerful weapons at their disposal under the leadership of individuals with links to business interests in the country and to old political families.
Speaker A: We’re talking about the Haitian government asking for help, but apparently there isn’t really an elected government at the moment.
Speaker A: So who’s making the phone calls, Patrick, and who’s directing the aid if the U.S., if other countries say, hey, we’re going to step in?
Speaker B: You’re asking exactly the right question.
Speaker B: There is no Haitian government.
Speaker B: President Jovenel Moise, who has exhausted his constitutional mandate in Haiti and has continued to enjoy the support of the United States.
Speaker B: The UN and others, he dismantled the Senate in Haiti, destroyed the nation’s Supreme Court, dissolved most ministries and ran the country by Fiat before his assassination.
Speaker B: After his assassination, no attempt was made to reform these institutions so that they could rise from their original scaffolding.
Speaker B: Instead, we have a Prime Minister who was appointed a few days before the assassination of Jovo Mois by a President who, once again, had exhausted the limits of his constitutional mandate.
Speaker B: He was appointed Prime Minister.
Speaker B: The Prime Minister takes office following an assassination in which he himself is implicated.
Speaker B: And after a few months of support from the United States.
Speaker B: From the UN.
Contributor B: From many other players, he then began to appeal to the United States.
Participant B: And Canada for some kind of military intervention.
Speaker B: He claims that the gangs have exhausted the limits of his ability to govern, to deploy effective police against them, and that the only remedy, the only prescription here is international intervention.
Speaker B: Notice that he is making this appeal at the same time as he is resisting and delaying the opening of a series of transparent negotiations with civil society, with the political opposition on the construction of a transitional government that could then lead to genuine democratic elections in Haiti.
Speaker B: So you have someone who is governing not through the graces of the Haitian people themselves, but through an illegal appointment made by an assassinated president, and through the continued support of international actors who are telling civil society actors in Haiti that they must find ways to make common cause with this person.
Speaker B: So he’s the one requesting the intervention.
Speaker A: We’ll take a short break and come back to the Haitian crisis in greater detail.
Speaker A: A word with Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Stay tuned.
Speaker A: This is Jason Johnson, host of A Word Slate, a podcast about race, politics and everything else.
Speaker A: I’d like to take a moment to welcome our new listeners.
Speaker A: If you’ve discovered a word and like what you hear, please subscribe, rate and comment.
Speaker A: Wherever you listen to podcasts, let us know what you think by writing to us at A Word@slate.com.
Speaker A: Thank you.
Guest A: You’re listening to A Word with Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Today we’re talking about the Haitian crisis with Patrick Gaspard, head of the think tank Center for American Progress.
Speaker A: So you know that the Biden administration is not interested in sending an American force to Haiti.
Speaker A: That makes sense.
Speaker A: We’ve just withdrawn from Afghanistan, so there’s not a lot of American interest in sending troops anywhere right now.
Speaker A: You mentioned billions of dollars that have been invested in corrupt regimes in the past.
Speaker A: What are the United States doing right now?
Speaker A: Are they facilitating phone calls between other countries that want to intervene in Haiti?
Speaker A: Is any kind of international aid being sent?
Speaker A: What are the United States doing?
Speaker A: What is the United States doing for Haiti right now, if anything?
Speaker B: Yes to all the questions above, Jason, there is still a flow of USAID international aid which is led by Samantha Powers, playing a significant role on the ground helping to set up safety nets in a country where all the institutions have been decimated.
Speaker B: I’d like to commend Vice President Kamala Harris for her direct and personal interventions, as well as the administration’s determination to support certain parts and aspects of the police forces in Haiti, who are trying to do the right thing for their fellow citizens.
Speaker B: But at the end of the day, Jason, the United States…
Speaker B: So far, the U.S. has not lived up to its responsibility, its obligation to pressure an illegitimate government that it has supported to engage in transparent and meaningful negotiations with Haitian citizens, Haitian democratic actors, to re-establish its institutions and to finally move toward legitimate elections in Haiti.
Speaker B: So, the United States.
Speaker B: They were involved in the negotiations that took place in Jamaica under the auspices of CARICOM.
Speaker B: Finally, a few weeks ago, after much pressure from the diaspora, Secretary of State Blinken told Prime Minister Ariel Henri that continued U.S. support for his leadership was contingent on legitimate elections.
Speaker B: That was contingent on legitimate negotiations.
Speaker B: But we continue to see Prime Minister Henri stalling, dragging his feet and not making the slightest concession.
Contributor B: And that’s deeply disturbing.
Panelist A: Some of Haiti’s neighbors are saying they are ready to intervene, but so are some African countries, notably Kenya.
Questioner A: What has Kenya proposed to do?
Speaker A: And what are the concerns?
Speaker B: Take a look.
Speaker B: The United States.
Speaker B: And others in the region are absolutely right to say that it’s necessary to invest in stability in Haiti through some kind of security force.
Speaker B: I think this investment should be made directly in the capacity of the police force in Haiti in partnership with international actors, particularly those who could provide French-speaking security support in Haiti.
Speaker B: Let’s look at the situation in Kenya.
Speaker B: I think they’ve taken a bold step in offering to lead the international force, and indeed, they’re the only country that’s committed to Haiti in nearly nine months of Ariel and Yee’s appeal.
Spokesperson B: But the Kenyan security forces have a history of civilian conduct that should raise concerns and merit special attention from the international community and the Haitians.
Panelist B: Earlier this year, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reported cases of the use of live ammunition against Kenyan demonstrators, leading to extrajudicial executions.
Speaker B: At least eleven people were killed and 47 injured by police in a single demonstration in July in western Kenya.
Speaker B: And these were demonstrations for basic transparency of democracy in their own system in Kenya.
Speaker B: Kenyans don’t have the capacity to speak French or Haitian either.
Speaker B: This is an English-speaking country, which raises questions about their integration with the Haitian police or their ability to appropriately engage Haitian citizens on the ground in an incredibly fluid and volatile set of circumstances in a difficult environment.
Speaker B: For all foreign troops operating in Haiti, it will be important to establish appropriate accountability mechanisms to prevent and address potential misconduct, given Haiti’s long-standing inability to seek justice for rights violations committed in the country.
Speaker B: Let me remind you, Jason, that when the UN deployed security forces to Haiti after the earthquake, it led to a cholera epidemic in Haiti – Haiti had never had cholera before the UN security forces arrived.
Speaker B: And it also led, shockingly, to sexual abuse of young Haitian girls in the capital and elsewhere, directly caused by UN security forces.
Speaker B: So all troops, whether they support the Haitian policing mechanism or come as military support, should come from the past, not just from an illegitimate one who has received no formal support from the Haitian people.
Speaker B: There should be a transition where the de facto prime minister works in tandem with Haitian civil society, Haitian business leaders and the rest of the international community to directly express the role of this force.
Speaker B: The international force, how it supports policing in Haiti, what the purpose of this force will be, what the transition looks like, and how this transition relates to the political transition in the country.
Speaker B: Genuine power sharing that will lead to transparent and fair elections in the country.
Speaker A: We’ll take a short break.
Speaker A : When we return, we’ll come back to the crisis in Haiti and the international response.
Speaker A : A word with Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Stay tuned.
Speaker A: You’re listening to A word with Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: Today we’re talking about the situation in Haiti with Patrick Gaspard from the Center for American Progress.
Speaker A: Over the course of its history, Haiti has suffered from interventions by the United States and other countries that have not produced good results for the country.
Speaker A: UN troops fueled a cholera epidemic, which you just mentioned.
Speaker A: NGOs and international forces have been involved in sexual exploitation and the like.
Speaker A: Everything you’ve talked about, all these bad things have happened.
Speaker A: What would Haitians, whose opinions and perspectives are trustworthy, really want?
Speaker A: What does Haiti want from the voices of civil society, people on the ground, political scientists and sociologists who are empathetic and sincere about what an intervention should look like?
Speaker A: What do they really need?
Speaker B: Both President Biden and Secretary of State Blinken have stressed the need for a Haitian solution to this crisis.
Speaker B: I couldn’t agree more.
Speaker B: But a Haitian solution to this crisis must be done in partnership with the international community, because we know and recognize that the international community has played a direct role in destabilizing Haitian institutions.
Participant B: So it’s not as if this crisis was created from scratch on the ground.
Contributor B: There have been internal interventions that have led to the instability that exists in Haiti today.
Speaker B: Haitian civil society, even before the assassination of President Jovana Malis, came together and created a vast pact with over 2,000 organizations and created this pact called the Montana Compact which set out directly, clearly and powerfully how aid in the country should be managed, should be used for building long-term infrastructure in Haiti.
Speaker B: It clearly defined the mechanisms to be put in place to account for past corruption and violence in the country.
Speaker B: He has charted a course for reform of the Haitian constitution.
Speaker B: Haitians have been operating under a constitution that was designed after the U.S. Marines intervened a century ago.
Speaker B: It doesn’t work.
Speaker B: It didn’t work then.
Speaker B: It doesn’t work in today’s Haiti.
Speaker B: It needs to be reformed before a new government can be put in place.
Speaker B: And essentially, Jason, the Haitians will be the first to tell you that there needs to be some form of policing support in Haiti that can restore a basic sense of dignity to the streets of the capital and throughout the country to restore the order that will then make economic integration and progress in the country possible.
Speaker B: Haitians want all that.
Speaker B: They want it in partnership.
Speaker B: Essentially, they want to be heard, because they’ve been asking for these things for a long time now.
Speaker B: The U.S. has an inordinate amount of power in Haiti, like so many others.
Speaker B: And they need to be able to leverage that power in the overall interest of the Haitian voices who have been thinking, in a very sophisticated way, about what a transition in partnership in Haiti should look like.
Speaker A: What are the real consequences for the United States or even this part of the world if nobody does anything about what’s happening in Haiti right now?
Speaker B: It’s not a future that I like to imagine, that I like to predict.
Speaker B: But I promise you that if there isn’t a political transition in Haiti that takes into account the basic democratic and economic aspirations, the really basic and fundamental aspirations of the Haitian people.
Speaker B: You’re going to continue to see destabilization, violence and devolution of this country in a way that would lead to more forced migration.
Speaker B: More and more Haitians are making the difficult decision to leave their country, to seek peace, stability and amnesty elsewhere.
Speaker B: And that elsewhere will again be at the border at Del Rio or on the Florida coast, leading to further crises here in the United States.
Speaker B: Also, Jason, we should understand that given the history of direct intervention by the U.S….
Speaker B: In Haiti for a century.
Speaker B: And again, I remind your listeners that this US intervention.
100 years ago, it was at the request of a sugar company.
Speaker B: That’s right.
Speaker B: It’s important to understand the relationship between the way we’ve exercised power in this region and the particular economic outcomes that previous administrations have fostered.
Speaker B: The long and deep history of the United States.
Speaker B: a of this kind of intervention and support for dictatorships like Givaya’s has led us to a situation where the United States.
Speaker B: have a direct responsibility for the results in Haiti and can’t wash their hands of it.
Speaker B: Your listeners need to understand that US administrations supported the Givaya dictatorship and cannot wash their hands of it.
Speaker B: U.S. administrations supported the illegal continuation of Jovenel Moise’s administration beyond the constitutional mandate.
Speaker B: The U.S. has supported the leadership of And Lee, who, once again, is unelected and operates without a mandate from the people and is directly linked to gang violence in the streets.
Speaker B: Therefore, this administration that places democracy and human rights at the center of its foreign policy has an obligation to complete the country’s democratic transition now.
Speaker B: Secretary of State Blinken and President Biden have stressed the need to send international troops to help stabilize Haiti’s worsening humanitarian and security crisis.
Speaker B: I would add that the Secretary of State and the President should also insist on the urgency of a democratic transition, as this goes hand in hand with the security crisis.
Speaker A: I always like to end these interviews with good news, something people can be optimistic about, or in this particular case, something people can actually do.
Speaker A: So, if someone’s listening to the show right now, hears a word and thinks, okay, that sounds terrible, I didn’t know that was happening in Haiti.
Speaker A: I’m concerned.
Panelist A: It’s a humanitarian crisis.
Speaker A: I care because I care about the world.
Speaker A : I don’t want people coming to the border to do this, that or the other.
Speaker A: What could someone listening to this conversation right now, Patrick, do to help the people suffering in Haiti right now?
Speaker B: Fortunately for us, this crisis comes at a time when we have a robust, deep and sophisticated civil society in Haiti, which has joined with an active Haitian diaspora in the United States.
Speaker B: So we’re embarking on a kind of muscular advocacy, a creative communication around this issue.
Speaker B: And a large part of that is focused on raising awareness among leaders in Congress, the White House and the State Department.
Speaker B: I noted the exemplary leadership of Congressman Gregory Meeks, one of the Democrats’ leaders on Capitol Hill on foreign policy.
Speaker B: I think Congressmen like Meeks and others who serve with leaders like Chuck Schumer who have called for a democratic transition in Haiti, should be supported in those calls.
Speaker B: And I think the positive affirmation of these calls by your listeners, whether on social media or through direct phone calls, letters, affirmations, these positions will be helpful for these leaders to take the conversation to the State Department, the White House, the United Nations and elsewhere in support of the Haitian diaspora and Haiti’s vibrant civil society.
Speaker B: So it’s fair to say that this is a way of building resistance that will lead to change.
Speaker A: Patrick Gaspard is the former Secretary General of the United Nations.
Speaker A: Former U.S. Ambassador to South Africa and South Africa.
Speaker A: U.S. Ambassador to South Africa and President and CEO of the Center for American Progress.
Speaker A: Thank you very much for joining us today on A Word.
Speaker B: Thank you very much, Jason.
Speaker B: I appreciate your voice.
Speaker A: And that’s a word for this week.
Speaker A: The show is.
Speaker A: The email is word@slate.com.
Speaker A: This episode was produced by Christy Tywo Mackenziela.
Speaker A: Ben Richmond is Slate’s senior director of podcast operations.
Contributor A: Alicia Montgomery is Vice President of Slate Audio.
Speaker A: Our theme music was produced by Don Will.
Speaker A: I’m Jason Johnson.
Speaker A: See you next week for a word.
https://slate.com/podcasts/a-word/2023/08/who-will-step-up-for-haiti